JFK Assassination Conspiracy and AI Part-2 with Detective Chris Lyons

Continued:

Tommy Podcast:
During the Cold War this happened, and he didn't get a second look.

Chris Lyons:
The thing about that story that makes me feel like he was just kind of mentally ill is if you're going to defect in secret, why would you go and announce that you're defecting? That kind of

Tommy Podcast:
Because...

Chris Lyons:
takes the clandestine part out of it.

Tommy Podcast:
Not if they're not no because he told that to the Americans. Every American embassy was bugged during the Cold War. He was doing that because he was trying to get the Russians to think he was a fake defector. That's the presumption is that he walked into the embassy knowing it was bugged and said, look, I just want you to know I'm done as a citizen. I'm going over there. These are things I know. I don't know if I'm going to, you know, what I'm going to tell them, but just so you know, I'm out of here. And the idea would be that he knows that that's a direct line to Russian intelligence so that then hopefully he can go over there and,

Chris Lyons:
Oh, okay. So he's like

Tommy Podcast:
and

Chris Lyons:
planning the seed.

Tommy Podcast:
like making himself bait.

Chris Lyons:
Okay.

Tommy Podcast:
And so it's a false defector program. So even the guys at the embassy wouldn't have known. They wouldn't have called ahead and said, listen, this guy's faking it. No, he'd have walked in there, let them be like, good Lord, man. And then. knowing that would hopefully, but the thinking on that is that he laid it on a little too thick maybe, like there's nothing subtle about that and if Russia's been down this road a thousand times at this point, or if they're suspicious about fake defectors, which clearly that had to be going on like mad, that... once he was, they didn't buy it basically. Although he did get an interesting job over there in an interesting factory, having to do with defense. But even that's weird. But he comes back, it's just, it sounds like. The Russians were like, yeah, we're not buying it, but we'll just sort of see what goes on. And he comes back, sort of gets brought back into the intelligence community, and they start sending him down to New Orleans to do weird things like get into a fight pretending he's pro-Castro while he's still hanging out with like crazy right wingers behind the scenes

Chris Lyons:
Oh

Tommy Podcast:
kind

Chris Lyons:
yeah,

Tommy Podcast:
of thing.

Chris Lyons:
that, um, what was it? Fair play for Cuba, right?

Tommy Podcast:
Yes, sir, yes, sir, you. Yeah, and so. fascinating but I do think just going back to any assertion that too many people involved and they kept it quiet. No. There were so many people involved and so many people who weren't quiet about it but there's really no benefit to not being quiet. You weren't even going to sell a million books. There's a story, do you know who Irv Kupcinet is? He was a writer at a Chicago, he talked about sports lot, he wrote, he was famous like in the 60s, 70s when we were kids. And he initially, he was friends with some mobsters. Apparently, and this is backed up by phone records, he called his mobster friends in Chicago, he lived in Chicago and was asking about, hey, were you guys involved in this? His daughter ended up dead within like a week and he never talked about the JFK assassination again. And he was, prior to that, he was a very investigative type of guy, like he would stick his nose in, he was hard-nosed. After that, he never said a thing to anybody. He made one phone call to a mobster and those records came out. in probably some one of the investigations, probably not Warren. And yeah, his daughter died under wildly mysterious circumstances. Another very sketchy overdose where like even the, you know, just physical characteristics of the room, I think again, lack of vomiting. things like that made it suspicious. But what's the upside in making a lot of noise about the JFK conspiracy stuff? Hell, the word conspiracy got attached to this right away and you're a crazy, you're a nut, that kind of thing,

Chris Lyons:
Well,

Tommy Podcast:
to the point

Chris Lyons:
and

Tommy Podcast:
where...

Chris Lyons:
that's how you discredit anybody who has information is you attack their character, you know, that they're a bad person or they're a criminal or they're associated with bad people so that even if they have good information about something, if it damages their credibility in any scenario, you know. it's easier to discredit them if it goes that way. The most interesting thing to me, because I think evidence, conspiracies are hard to prove, the most interesting thing to me, and I would love if somebody would be able to do it, is if you could somehow block off that whole area on that road, because I believe that road is still there in Dallas, and there's like a bridge, how that motorcade went and if you could get a vehicle and have mannequins in it and if you could put somebody in the window that they think that he is in or was in and if he could if that basically if they could reconstruct the shooting in that way not with computers and

Tommy Podcast:
No, they've done that with the best shooters in the world that they could get. They

Chris Lyons:
Was

Tommy Podcast:
more,

Chris Lyons:
it Daily Plaza? Was that the name?

Tommy Podcast:
no, but it was this Dealey Plaza. But, and so they did all the geometry about it has been done to the letter. So they know what distance is. And they did it, nobody could do it. Nobody could do it. And

Chris Lyons:
That's

Tommy Podcast:
then

Chris Lyons:
what, to me that's the interesting

Tommy Podcast:
they shortened.

Chris Lyons:
part is...

Tommy Podcast:
then they shorten the distance by half, and like

Chris Lyons:
right

Tommy Podcast:
one guy could do it.

Chris Lyons:
that that's the most interesting part to me is it is this replicatable you know that you're shooting with an antiquated weapon at great distance that is

Tommy Podcast:
Not

Chris Lyons:
bolt

Tommy Podcast:
a marksman.

Chris Lyons:
action well I mean he had some military training but I

Tommy Podcast:
He had the bare basic qualifications. The word marksman does not mean you're a marksman. It means you're

Chris Lyons:
Right. You-

Tommy Podcast:
basic, basic qualifications.

Chris Lyons:
That you've

Tommy Podcast:
So

Chris Lyons:
qualified.

Tommy Podcast:
that's what they all, yeah, they're always like, oh, he was a marksman in the Marines.

Chris Lyons:
Yeah, yeah,

Tommy Podcast:
And

Chris Lyons:
there's

Tommy Podcast:
I'm

Chris Lyons:
different...

Tommy Podcast:
like, well, marksman means he passed the basic shooting

Chris Lyons:
the

Tommy Podcast:
class,

Chris Lyons:
basic shooting

Tommy Podcast:
more or less.

Chris Lyons:
now i will tell you though uh... marines can hit uh... a silhouette at five hundred yards with iron sights the distance the trajectory and the uh... the three what we say three shots

Tommy Podcast:
The

Chris Lyons:
uh... that

Tommy Podcast:
ping

Chris Lyons:
quickly

Tommy Podcast:
pong but-

Chris Lyons:
uh... President Jackie, was it Senator Connolly?

Tommy Podcast:
Governor Connolly.

Chris Lyons:
Governor Connolly, who

Tommy Podcast:
and

Chris Lyons:
and

Tommy Podcast:
a driver.

Chris Lyons:
he was struck, he was struck as well I think in the wrist.

Tommy Podcast:
He had shattered ribs, he had a shattered wrist, and he had a bullet in his leg when the dust settled.

Chris Lyons:
Yeah, I really... And what? And they're saying three rounds basically.

Tommy Podcast:
Well, yeah, and one of them created like five holes between the two of them. But I don't think that's on the table anymore. I don't think the Warren Commission, like acoustic findings or ballistic findings, hold any water. And I think honestly, I don't think they have any credence whatsoever or any place in the debate at this point. It's... Come on, you found a pristine bullet rolling out of a body in the hospital? Oh, by the way, I'm not sure he was

Chris Lyons:
Oh,

Tommy Podcast:
on

Chris Lyons:
that's

Tommy Podcast:
that

Chris Lyons:
right,

Tommy Podcast:
gurney.

Chris Lyons:
that's right.

Tommy Podcast:
Yeah,

Chris Lyons:
Yeah, they-

Tommy Podcast:
oh, hey, there's a bullet. Come on, dude. The bullet that shattered a wrist is in one piece. Here's the other thing. The weight of the bullets' pieces, at the end of the day, weighed more than three bullets.

Chris Lyons:
Okay,

Tommy Podcast:
It wasn't three

Chris Lyons:
I see what

Tommy Podcast:
bullets.

Chris Lyons:
you're saying.

Tommy Podcast:
You know, that alone.

Chris Lyons:
But they were committed to the number three for whatever reason.

Tommy Podcast:
because anything more than three and you've got two shooters. Anything, they're using words like magic, that one guy pulled it off. So more than three shots would have had to have definitely been a team. And that's why it had to be. That's why all the witnesses, there's a guy who worked for the train company right behind the book depository, there's tracks, he's in a tower watching a guy behind the fence in the parking lot up the hill on top of the grassy knoll. a shooter. He died

Chris Lyons:
He's the

Tommy Podcast:
under

Chris Lyons:
one

Tommy Podcast:
mysterious.

Chris Lyons:
who saw the white smoke over the fence.

Tommy Podcast:
No, no, he was behind the fence watching from behind. So

Chris Lyons:
Okay.

Tommy Podcast:
he

Chris Lyons:
A

Tommy Podcast:
was.

Chris Lyons:
female witness saw the white smoke.

Tommy Podcast:
A bunch of people saw white smoke. And a bunch of people saw multiple people in the window on the sixth floor. One gentleman was described as dark skinned, could have been Latino, could have been black. But that's in this conversation, it makes you wonder if that could have been somebody who was part of the Cuban program. that was originally supposed to assassinate Castro because those are the teams and the plans that they used to kill JFK. This whole

Chris Lyons:
Stay.

Tommy Podcast:
thing was a Castro assassination program that was set up by JFK and signed off on by JFK and those exact management teams. They first, they tried Chicago, then they tried Miami and Tampa. And there was a Department of Defense team that stopped all those assassination attempts. And they were sending another team, not Secret Service. Yeah, I want to say it was, there were assassination interdiction teams in addition to Secret Service sent to all these who stopped. plots they knew of, and they failed in

Chris Lyons:
Wow.

Tommy Podcast:
Dallas. But the three previous visits JFK made, he acknowledged, he was having conversations with people about whether or not, and they did cancel. I want to say they canceled in Florida even doing something because they didn't foil who was involved. But there are people arrested in, was it Chicago, or was it Miami, the guy who got arrested, whose whole previous three-year resume matched Oswald's to a T in terms of all his behaviors who he had been linked with in terms of what they were into. And so it appears they may have had multiple Oswalds in multiple locations. And he was the Dallas Patsy. They had probably a Miami Patsy, a Tampa Patsy, a Chicago Patsy, because these are all places where there were known plots acknowledged by the Kennedys. They discussed it in cases they went, in cases they canceled. But they did not want to cancel Dallas. Well, here we are today. I think it made things a little different. But it is, it is, if you read a bunch of books, you realize, oh, there were people talking about this all the time. There were people like immediately after saying to their kids, like, oh, beware, I'm probably going to get whacked. And there were FBI agents 10 years later committing suicide with two bullets in the head while they jump off a boat. because they were on a subpoena list, so that they just got wiped out. And that's all kind of public record stuff. And when you put it all together, it's kind of interesting, or it sounds batshit crazy. It's definitely

Chris Lyons:
Mm-hmm.

Tommy Podcast:
one of the two, depending on who you're talking to. And I realized, I get so excited by the topic because to me it's like a crime mystery. So I'm like, and then this,

Chris Lyons:
It is.

Tommy Podcast:
and then this. And people are probably like, dude, you're talking about, like you're way too excited for this topic. I don't know how much that takes away from my own credibility. But I've read all the books that I can get my hands on, on sort of both sides of the story. I just can't. It's so preposterous using words like magic for that one side that I basically just swept it off at this point.

Chris Lyons:
When people who provide information that is a small piece of the puzzle, either mysteriously or murdered or die in some weird accident, that's interesting. I had looked at... Somebody had sent me a photograph of... It was like the Clinton era. remember when they had the, I think he was still the governor and there was like a bank, it was like S&L, S&L I think, and there was,

Tommy Podcast:
I do remember.

Chris Lyons:
it was something with a land deal, buying or selling real estate and they had, you know, like people do, you know, you tell your friend about it, you know, hey, there's this really great deal, we're gonna do this and there's money to be made, and then somehow it gets... blown apart and you know now people are gonna start going to jail and then when you look at it was almost like a yearbook photo because it was like a business photo and you know where people are like stacked in rows you know like they're all adults but it's like they look like they're in the bleachers in a high school type of thing and then the picture shows all of these people that were somehow connected to this and how you know say there was a hundred people in the photo how 97 of them are dead you know and Different things, you know the shot in the head twice off the boat, you know Heart attack, you know fell asleep on the road drove off the road Carjacking victim or whatever and you're like that that's pretty weird. I mean cuz like if you looked at you say your high school photo Like I have a class photo. I had a pretty big graduating class like 400 kids 20 years later 30 years later 40 years later Were you know were 200 of them murdered or committed suicide because like you think about it statistically in a population how many people would You know be the victim of an accident the victim of a crime or take their own life So if you have this one small population where the only thing they have in common is that they were affiliated with certain people or worked at a certain place or had a certain job and then twenty years later out of a hundred of them, ninety-eight of them, excuse me, are deceased. Statistically, just definitely an outlier.

Tommy Podcast:
That's the Dealey Plaza math. It's 19 people at a Dealey Plaza. But then the rings go concentric, because once committees start showing up and subpoenas start going out, that's when the just mass death starts happening in the Kennedy assassination story. People just got wiped out there in the 70s, whose names are relevant to this story, and whether they were mobsters, whether they were FBI. big shots, whether they were suspected CIA, that kind of thing, or it's just so many. I want to say like probably at least a dozen related to the House Select Committee on Assassinations because there's five FBI and not all the FBI stories are, you know, they were all deemed heart attacker, accidental, shot by a hunting or suicide, shot twice in the head, jumping out of a boat. That's the most ridiculous one.

Chris Lyons:
What I would be interested in is so I can't remember the officer's name So basically after the shooting Oswald

Tommy Podcast:
Tip it.

Chris Lyons:
flees the Depository and a Dallas Patrolman for some reason decides to check out with Oswald basically do like what we call it FI are like basically get out with them talk to him check his identification and pretty quickly into the contact Oswald shoots and kills that officer and then he is ultimately arrested in a movie theater in Dallas. But I was curious to know like what, and that to me, because that's the cop part in me, like what is the chain of events? Like how do you go from an area that's far away from where the shooting occurred to an officer getting out with this man who's just walking in the daytime, the officer is murdered and then they descend on this theater that he's in and then he's in custody and then very quickly they're saying that oh yeah and he shot you know officer smith oh and the president you know and it's like what

Tommy Podcast:
It was

Chris Lyons:
how did what

Tommy Podcast:
Tippett.

Chris Lyons:
connect tip it

Tommy Podcast:
Yeah, JD Tippett. And so

Chris Lyons:
Yes.

Tommy Podcast:
Tippett was a part, also was a bouncer. He worked for Jack Ruby at Jack Ruby's strip club as a bouncer. Tippett and Jack Ruby are possibly some of the more compelling keys to the whole story being obvious bullshit. And so, for one thing, Oswald had a relationship, and No, no, no. Oswald's landlady, he shared a, he was living in Dallas, I want to say like five days a

Chris Lyons:
Yeah,

Tommy Podcast:
week.

Chris Lyons:
like he rented a room

Tommy Podcast:
And

Chris Lyons:
from a lady.

Tommy Podcast:
his landlady used to gossip with the, so she was friends with the wives of the cops who had that sort of patrol beat in their car. And you probably got a neat code for that. And then, She saw that day, she reported in her testimony that a cop car stopped in front of the house when Lee had run home and honked. She thought it was going to be the husband of one of her friends, so she went and peaked, said the number was wrong. She said, I can't tell you what the number was, but I can tell you it wasn't this number because that's Jack's unit or whatever. So she just ignored it. And then if There were no other patrol cars anywhere near. that area. And that's in the general area where obviously Tippett gets shot. Oswald was, or Tippett was not supposed to be anywhere near there at that time. That was not his patrol area at the time he got shot. Furthermore, the very first forensic analysis of the scene in terms of somebody picking up a cartridge, or a casing rather, and looking at it,

Chris Lyons:
Thanks

Tommy Podcast:
said this is

Chris Lyons:
for

Tommy Podcast:
an automatic

Chris Lyons:
watching!

Tommy Podcast:
weapon. He got shot with an automatic weapon. That's a very first impression and I believe there were too many shots for a revolver. according to witness testimony because people heard Tippett get shot. Eyewitnesses said they watched a man in certain slacks, certain shirt, and certain jacket walk away from the scene after walking around the front of the car, putting a kill shot in him, and reloading his gun, walking away. None of those elements fit the description of Oswald, but those don't make it into the Warren Commission report. Those are in the 26 volumes So there's every bit, if you looked at just the tippet shooting as a crime scene, you personally, I think you'd be done with the Warren Commission report. If you just read about the JD tippet shooting and how ridiculous and preposterous the story around that is, why would that be faked? Why would that be covered up? Why would that be? in any way not a transparent investigative element. It's part of this whole assassination thing. And that's not even getting into the part where it probably would have been physically impossible for him to cover the ground.

Chris Lyons:
Okay, to

Tommy Podcast:
Oswald.

Chris Lyons:
walk the distance.

Tommy Podcast:
Yeah.

Chris Lyons:
To

Tommy Podcast:
Yes.

Chris Lyons:
cover the distance from his... the, uh... assassination shooting to... the... I mean, basically a good rule of thumb is, uh, a healthy adult you can walk a mile in about 15 minutes. So, um, when we would be out... on the road and we would have some kind of crime, some kind of robbery or something where people are calling 911 and you're setting that perimeter, a lot of times I would look at the map and basically push it out because if they say it occurred at 10 o'clock and they called at 10-05, push it back 20 minutes because first they panicked and freaked out and called their wife and then kind of walked around for a few minutes and were upset and crying and scared.

Tommy Podcast:
Hahaha

Chris Lyons:
And so they're not being dishonest about what happened. They're just, they're trying to tell you quickly, but more time has elapsed than they realized. And so you're, you know, it just happened. It just happened. He just ran off. That is really five or 10 minutes ago. So you would set that perimeter out further. because you know whatever they try to relay to you know so if uh... they if we would get a call of like robbery uh... luckily where i work uh... it's like a grid system the street so it makes it easy to set perimeters now but uh... you know if it happened on second avenue you don't want to put a police car on third avenue because he's already pat he's past tenths you know what i mean

Tommy Podcast:
Yeah.

Chris Lyons:
like by the time you get set up so i wonder what that physical distances between the room he was renting see now i have to read all these books uh... but to me

Tommy Podcast:
Oh,

Chris Lyons:
it's

Tommy Podcast:
it's

Chris Lyons:
that

Tommy Podcast:
so fun.

Chris Lyons:
i witness eyewitness testimony is interesting but to me that is the least reliable They interpret things, they see things differently, they attribute certain things to whatever. I like bullet holes, shell casings, blood spatter, things that are concrete that you can look at and review. And then, like if you have a BPA expert, figure out the math and they can't give you a perfect point of origin for it but they can give you a range. And those things, then to me, those things make your witness either credible or not. Like have you ever heard the term stippling?

Tommy Podcast:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Chris Lyons:
So it's the burning from the gunpowder. So if I got shot right here and I have a black circle and then like a field of burnt powder that's burnt my skin and you say, you and I got into a fight and you say that I was coming at you with a shovel but you shot me and you were 50 feet away, that's a contact wound or near contact within probably six inches. So that evidence then to me is, determines your credibility of your testimony.

Tommy Podcast:
That's, yeah, that'll come up when you read about the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, when you look at what the official story is, and then when you read about the damage done basically by point blank. what would you call it, a point blank discharge. The kill shot was behind his right ear. It was described as just burned point blank. And Sir Hen Sir Hen was three to four feet away from him pointing a gun at his chest. That's the official

Chris Lyons:
Now

Tommy Podcast:
story.

Chris Lyons:
he was... Was he the attorney general when that happened?

Tommy Podcast:
No, he was a senator at that point, but he had just secured the Democratic primary. I think he might have just secured the nomination in California. And so he was at the Ambassador Hotel, and he was taken on a route that they weren't supposed to be taken on through a part of the hotel that they weren't supposed to go through. And there's Sirhan Sirhan. waiting for him, stands in front of him directly, starts firing shots, gets tackled by Rosie Greer who's a professional football player, gets tackled by George Plimpton who was a writer, personality, actor slash CIA operative. His wife was there, but the whole room was packed. But all the, Sirhan is in front of him, shooting. And then even in the autopsy

Chris Lyons:
So

Tommy Podcast:
report.

Chris Lyons:
I can explain that. So you point your pretend gun at me, your finger, and we're chest to chest, right? But what do I do?

Tommy Podcast:
Maybe.

Chris Lyons:
So now, so now, you're one of your rounds that hits me here.

Tommy Podcast:
Let's.

Chris Lyons:
You know what

Tommy Podcast:
Well,

Chris Lyons:
I mean?

Tommy Podcast:
I hear you, but that doesn't explain the

Chris Lyons:
No,

Tommy Podcast:
two

Chris Lyons:
I'm

Tommy Podcast:
holes

Chris Lyons:
not saying

Tommy Podcast:
in the back

Chris Lyons:
that-

Tommy Podcast:
of it. There's two more in behind him in his ribs. So as if, and just for example, if the police officer who was guiding him through that pantry by the right elbow happened to be a CIA agent, which it later came out in interviews that he was, he trained. he trained Cuban dissidents for the Bay of Pigs invasion. That's just neither here nor there. So he's walking Bobby Kennedy through a pantry on the day Bobby Kennedy takes a bullet right where this guy's standing. I think it's boom, and that's it. And there are eyewitnesses who said they watched. So, or he shot him in the body, because there's two eyewitnesses who said a bellboy walked right up to Bobby Kennedy, put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger. Multiple credible witnesses said, I watched. And one of them swears it's Sirhan Sirhan. He's like, no, I saw him do it. And they're like, no, he was in front of him. That's not the guy. He's like, he was wearing a white jacket. And I saw the whole thing. I saw Sirhan shoot him. And they're like, sir, the guy in a white jacket, he was wearing a dark suit or something like that. So in that room, first of all, there's like four extra bullet holes. Everybody sees fire shooting out of his gun this far. In your quick hypothesis. Investigator, what would make a gun shoot fire out this far?

Chris Lyons:
Probably if you had a hotload round in a short barrel weapon, like you could shoot a.357 round out of a.38, but it's not designed to do that. Ultimately you will damage the weapon and it could potentially like frag in your hand, but if somebody had made the rounds. Sometimes I used to go to this one range where the guy who owned it would reload ammunition, and sometimes you would get a light one that was like a cap gun. It was like, pfft, and it didn't really have the bang to it. And then sometimes you would get what they call a heavy load, where it had a little extra gunpowder in it than it should for that size, and it would make a really big difference. So I would

Tommy Podcast:
would.

Chris Lyons:
say heavy uh... loaded bullets or a larger uh... was a revolver or semi-autos

Tommy Podcast:
Revolver.

Chris Lyons:
revolved yes so i

Tommy Podcast:
It was

Chris Lyons:
would

Tommy Podcast:
a

Chris Lyons:
say problem probably heavy loaded rounds in a smaller weapon like if you like it

Tommy Podcast:
What would blanks look like getting shot out of a short-nose revolver?

Chris Lyons:
Um...

Tommy Podcast:
because that's where I'm going. is that he didn't even have live ammunition.

Chris Lyons:
So blanks, traditionally it's a real, like what they use on the movie sets. It's the casing, there's gunpowder in there, there's

Tommy Podcast:
And

Chris Lyons:
a

Tommy Podcast:
a

Chris Lyons:
primer,

Tommy Podcast:
wad, maybe.

Chris Lyons:
so the hammer has some, or the firing pin has something to strike to create that explosion, but it doesn't have the projectile portion. that actually shoots out the bullet, you know, so they can make their movie or whatever. So that the element missing is the bullet, the projectile.

Tommy Podcast:
Would that, would, so they didn't, have you shot them? Cause I'm under the impression that a blank gun will give you that effect. Will give you a fire effect cause it's paper wadding in there if nothing else.

Chris Lyons:
Right, yes it does. Yeah, it gives an effect of, and that's what they need for the movies, because they need that burst. But yeah, but those rounds that are, not rounds, those movie rounds don't have the projectile on it, unless you're on the set of Rust, then it does.

Tommy Podcast:
I'm thinking of would they give the effect of shooting fire out because the conspiracy on RFK is that, but by the way, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. believes what I'm about to tell you that Sir Hans Serhan never fired a bullet. A bullet never left his gun and all the damage came from behind. as all the medical reports say. But if you've, and the CIA, by the way, literally has magicians on staff. And their whole job is to teach you how to make everybody in the room look at one thing while you do something incredible in another part of the room. And that's what they think happened. But the problem is there's like 22 people in this tiny little pantry and a couple of them saw somebody put a gun right to the back of his head. Went on record, testified. This woman, Bobby Plimpton, was married to a celebrity. There was no dirt on her. Otherwise, we would have found out in my reading that she's a crazy maniac. Perfectly reputable. So, no, I saw somebody while Sir Hands over there pulling the trigger. I'm looking at Bobby Kennedy and a dude walked right up behind and put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger.

Chris Lyons:
So

Tommy Podcast:
And that's from two eyewitnesses.

Chris Lyons:
what would be the motivation though to get as far as to have a shooter in front of the person shooting blanks and then the real person behind him shooting... If you could get one person close enough face to face with him, why not just have him be your killer?

Tommy Podcast:
Because,

Chris Lyons:
Like what's the

Tommy Podcast:
well,

Chris Lyons:
benefit?

Tommy Podcast:
they don't trust him. Well, because they just burned a lone nut. Because then you can get rid of the most important people in the country who are going to stop wars and cost a trillion dollars out of somebody's bank account by having somebody disappear and not having people look into it. It's the not having people look into it that arises by having a lone nut. And so a guy who had no history of hating the Kennedys, a guy who had no history of hating America, a guy who had a very mild mannered before a head injury, I should mention, that brought him into psychiatric treatment with a doctor who has a history of working for the CIA and also overlaps with the Charles Manson story, which again, just makes this sound bat shit crazy. But one of the people who treated Sirhan after he fell off a horse, hit his head on a post, and then went into this weird depression, started seeing a psychiatrist, all he wanted to be was a jockey, by the way. But if you've got a guy who's dark skinned from a Middle Eastern country with a head injury, and you've got a doctor who can spot him and be like, hey, I got an opportunity for you for that thing you told me to watch out for, you wanted a guy like this with maybe some head injuries so we can program him, hypnotize him. When Rosie Greer, a defensive tackle, says he can't wrestle the gun out of a 160 pound man's hand, one hand, had one hand grip it and Rosie Greer could not get the gun out of his hand. By all accounts that's a symptom of being under hypnosis. He also has no recollection of any of it happening which is a symptom of being under hypnosis. None of the Kennedy kids think he did it. Not that that's a symptom of being under hypnosis but like from the jump he didn't know if he was guilty or not, got a terrible trial with a ridiculous defense attorney because all he could say was I don't know. So they were like well you know basically you did it. you killed freaking Robert F. Kennedy. And he had no recollection, his story never changed, he never failed a lie detector test, he never changed his tone. The Kennedy family's been campaigning to get him out of prison for. decades I think because the story on its face is so preposterous but that's where it gets weird is you've got a guy and all these stories including Lehigh Riazwald they all involve strip clubs and they all involve hypnosis and I think that's where the hypnosis was happening or that's where their control was happening. Ruby owned a strip club and Sirhan was seen in that kitchen and accompanied the whole night by what is described as a bombshell beauty like 1950s pinup beauty in a polka dot dress just hanging out with Sirhan all night and That she was the one to give him a pinch give him a poke Or whatever that he instantly goes into pull a gun mode and pull in the trigger any of it. But there is crazy weird overlap around conversation about mind control, hypnosis, and well documented programs that our government has now admitted to in subsequent decades that cover all these things in all these places during all these times. But you get any weirder than that and you know, people just don't know how to watch your YouTube video. They think you're a nut.

Chris Lyons:
the men who stare at goats

Tommy Podcast:
Oh,

Chris Lyons:
have you seen that?

Tommy Podcast:
such a great movie. That is a wildly entertaining movie. That is a fantastic portrayal. I also read the book, I want to say, that

Chris Lyons:
when

Tommy Podcast:
was based on.

Chris Lyons:
he says, what are you doing? And he says, cloud bursting, it keeps me sharp. Yeah.

Tommy Podcast:
Oh, that's the best. So I did mention before, I should, we got an hour and a half of good stuff under our belts. So who knows how I'll use this. Now that I've got, I might cut some of this into a Kennedy conspiracy podcast now. And I might, some of it would just be great like DNA Talk for true crime, like the New Jersey Criminal Podcast. But I was gonna say. We should, as I start to produce my own stuff, if we can come up with ways to collaborate, spin something off for you, look at dipping your toes somehow in the content, because I think you have an advantage in terms of, you know, the organization itself. The membership, if they were in any way to create a give and take of content, they certainly give you a base of readership and viewership. But the AI stuff has gotten really wild. So it's like you could put out articles all the time. I think there are ways to look at podcasting for you guys, where if you can fold in elements of like, it's about careers in the field of investigation, it's history. of investigation, those are all potentially fundable. And it might just be a few hours of work writing up a grant using some help with AI, and somebody might say, we'd love to have you put together a course for like, you know, what you could be studying in high school if they want to be an investigator, that kind of thing. Like, I don't know what they're looking for, but I know they're out there doing it, and we just had success in the last two weeks getting grants, getting checks written. And it's, I don't know, it's kind of fun. They would all be feel-good projects, and it seems like. The more you mix with other 501C3s, probably

Chris Lyons:
Mm-hmm.

Tommy Podcast:
the better, just getting out in that world, meeting some committees who write grants, things like that. But. Since you're sitting in a nonprofit chair, I couldn't help throwing it out there. I mean, myself and my client in New Jersey is the only situation I've worked with so far. But since you're already nonprofit, and you already have a huge resource of people who know things, who could contribute content. categorizing it, like I said, jobs, history, whatever, you might get some checks written to you over the next 12 months to fund content development that does nothing but grow your brand, your membership, your email list, whatever. But use me, whatever.

Chris Lyons:
I'm still in murder land with, now I'm thinking about Robert Kennedy being assassinated.

Tommy Podcast:
Oh yeah, that story is more ridiculous than the JFK story. In my humble opinion, it's far more absurd than

Chris Lyons:
It's

Tommy Podcast:
in

Chris Lyons:
a.

Tommy Podcast:
terms of like those few seconds

Chris Lyons:
So,

Tommy Podcast:
and how many holes are in the wall.

Chris Lyons:
so to, so what the area of the country I'm from, do you know the name Martha Moxley?

Tommy Podcast:
Yes.

Chris Lyons:
So Martha Moxley was a young girl who was murdered by a Kennedy family member when they were children, like they were like 14

Tommy Podcast:
Oh,

Chris Lyons:
or

Tommy Podcast:
this

Chris Lyons:
15.

Tommy Podcast:
was, oh, I remember, oh, that's a big time story. Yeah,

Chris Lyons:
Yes.

Tommy Podcast:
I do recall.

Chris Lyons:
So that occurred near where I lived in the northeast. So, you know, it was always kind of the... an interesting thing, you know, and then with us being right near Massachusetts, you know, Ted Kennedy was always on the news or television, you know, talking about something. And then... when they would want to slam him in a way, basically attacking his credibility, you know, they would say the Senator from Chappaquiddick because he, remember, he flipped his car and off a

Tommy Podcast:
Yeah.

Chris Lyons:
bridge and that his female passenger died. So, I, the Kennedy, the President Kennedy I saw it and read about it and thought about it. But with the Martha Moxley murder being right near me and then us also being near Massachusetts, I actually thought about those two a lot more. They ultimately later did charge that guy. I don't remember if he was a named Kennedy or if he was on a mother's side, you know, was in the family but was a cousin with a different last name. I can't remember his name but um,

Tommy Podcast:
Michael Schakel.

Chris Lyons:
you know, years and years go by and it's like, okay well there's two people in a room at a house and one of them is murdered and the other person says, I don't know what happened and I left. You know,

Tommy Podcast:
Yeah,

Chris Lyons:
and

Tommy Podcast:
Michael

Chris Lyons:
for,

Tommy Podcast:
Skakel,

Chris Lyons:
yeah, it was cold.

Tommy Podcast:
not a Kennedy.

Chris Lyons:
Not a Kennedy?

Tommy Podcast:
Now Michael Schaeckel.

Chris Lyons:
Was he a friend of... or was Moxley a Kennedy? There's a Kennedy somehow connection. They were either near them, friends with them, related to them, something.

Tommy Podcast:
Think he was a cousin? Uh, no, he was a Kennedy nephew.

Chris Lyons:
Okay, nephew, yeah. But um, and ultimately I believe he was arrested as an adult not too terribly long ago.

Tommy Podcast:
He served part of a 20 year sentence and was released in 2013.

Chris Lyons:
Yeah, but he when he that case sat as an unsolved murder for a long time

Tommy Podcast:
1975.

Chris Lyons:
Yeah. So, uh, and do you, do you have the year of his arrest? Can you see?

Tommy Podcast:
convicted in 2002.

Chris Lyons:
Yeah, so 75 to 2002, so it

Tommy Podcast:
Wow.

Chris Lyons:
sat cold for what? Five, ten. for almost 25

Tommy Podcast:
Almost 30,

Chris Lyons:
years.

Tommy Podcast:
yeah.

Chris Lyons:
If the trial was in 02, he probably was charged in either 2000 or 2001. So you have a murder basically between two juveniles that sat cold for 25 years, which is just ridiculous. was always very interesting to me because there was no magic to it. It was like there's two people, they're there, she's murdered, you were with her, but you don't know what happened, and then you go home. I understand he was a kid, he was scared, whatever, lie. That part doesn't surprise me, but I just don't understand why it wasn't, what was the difference? Why was it not prosecutable and arrestable? for 25 years and then what broke it? You know, a witness come forward, you know, he was friends with her and so I don't think that was like an evidence case because his DNA and fingerprints would be in her house or wherever they were because they were friends, they were together, so it's not going to be a forensic case unless he after all these years had some Conscience and broke down and confessed but I don't see that happening either So, you know what changed that all of a sudden now he's arrested like what broke it open

Tommy Podcast:
I think there was a book. I think somebody wrote a book about it. one of the, let's see. resulted in a no. Yeah, there was a book written in 1993. Then there was a book written in 1998 by Mark Fuhrman. And it appears

Chris Lyons:
OJ

Tommy Podcast:
that's

Chris Lyons:
Mark

Tommy Podcast:
what sort

Chris Lyons:
Furman?

Tommy Podcast:
of, you know, yeah, that Mark Fuhrman. So a book

Chris Lyons:
Wow.

Tommy Podcast:
in 93 by Dominic Dunn, a book in 98 by Mark Furman, who straight out names Michael Skakel as the murderer and points out specific mistakes made during the investigation. So I will say this, he later appealed that he didn't get appropriate counsel. He was, he got bail. They were supposed to retry him. in 2018, but now it looks like he's not going to be retried. It looks like this is an over and done kind of thing, but he's been in and out of jail.

Chris Lyons:
I think he did what is called an Alford plea, where basically at some point they were going to retry him and he made some admissions in open court about the offense, but he was not prosecuted again and it was a time served situation.

Tommy Podcast:
Oh,

Chris Lyons:
But yeah,

Tommy Podcast:
gotcha.

Chris Lyons:
that one was just terrible. She was young. She was only like 14 years old, maybe younger. He

Tommy Podcast:
terrible.

Chris Lyons:
was young though, too. I mean, they were both kids.

Tommy Podcast:
Well, if you dig into any of it, and I'll send you a link. I'll have some Kennedy book recommendations live this week, and I'll send you the link. But if you dig into any of that stuff and you want to argue with me about it, that would be awesome. That would be so much fun. I just can't get enough. I know this, I regret not recording some Kennedy stuff last year, because the sooner I get it out, the more it'll get warmed up in the YouTube algorithm. But I do think when November rolls around, also with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. running for president, I think the topic of the 60th anniversary of JFK's assassination is going to come up. And... Awfully weird that the Secret Service, the Biden administration denied him Secret Service protection. All the candidates got Secret Service protection, but Bobby freaking Kennedy didn't get Secret Service protection? That gives

Chris Lyons:
Yeah,

Tommy Podcast:
me

Chris Lyons:
they're

Tommy Podcast:
such p-

Chris Lyons:
0 for 2. You'd figure they'd help them out.

Tommy Podcast:
That gives me such pause when he's out there crusading against wars and stuff like that. That just rings of... I digress. Next thing I'll be getting pulled in by the FBI just for commenting on it. But yeah, that horrified me.

Chris Lyons:
I watched an interview with him. Actually, I think he was on Joe Rogan. He was a very good guest. He was very interesting. I wasn't really aware of him. Their family is so large and there's so many different people in their family that are successful and have done and achieved different things. But he has that very, very particular voice. So it's really easy to recognize him.

Tommy Podcast:
I think

Chris Lyons:
because

Tommy Podcast:
he

Chris Lyons:
that

Tommy Podcast:
said

Chris Lyons:
real group.

Tommy Podcast:
that's a neurological thing.

Chris Lyons:
He said that, yeah, in the interview that I watched, but it gives him a very distinctive sound, you know? So when you hear him, you're like, oh yeah, that's definitely him, you know?

Tommy Podcast:
Oh, 100%. It's interesting because he's doing a lot of long form. I don't think the regular media has given him a lot of time, but I see him. He's doing two or three. major podcasts a day, it looks like, because he just shows up on these big YouTube channels where they're like, Hey, we got Robert F. Kennedy for a half hour today. We got Robert F. Kennedy for 25 minutes today

Chris Lyons:
Yeah,

Tommy Podcast:
or an

Chris Lyons:
that's

Tommy Podcast:
hour.

Chris Lyons:
incredible.

Tommy Podcast:
And he's just letting them ask whatever they want and sitting there for 40 minutes, like laying it all out, which is a totally different thing than the sort of news sound bite approach. It's a very different kind of way to get to know somebody and it doesn't seem like a lunatic to me other than the fact that he's out there talking shit without Secret Service

Chris Lyons:
Have you

Tommy Podcast:
protection.

Chris Lyons:
have you ever been a guest on like a news broadcast or interviewed for the news?

Tommy Podcast:
No, no. Thank God.

Chris Lyons:
It's really weird. So they You're you're it's um Usually a quasi controlled environment, you know, you have the cameraman you have the reporter They kind of go over what? They're gonna hit on you know what it is You know, and then they ask you this these questions, but you're not really in control of anything. A friend of mine who I worked with, he's retired now but he was a very good detective, he basically spent an entire day with this reporter and she shadowed him and he was a crimes against children detective. He had given her a lot of really good material and like the yearbook answer type of stuff. In her article, the only quote that she used from him was a joke that he made at the end of the day when he said something to the effect of like, being a police officer is like being Spider-Man, with great power comes great responsibility. Which you know, he was a funny guy and he was just trying to be funny. And that is what she used in her printed article of her spending the day. So it makes him look like a clown. So the thing that I like about the podcast format is, you know, you're not sponsored by Pfizer, or you know, you don't have to get in for a commercial break. You don't have to, you know, okay, well we've got to go to John with weather. You know, if you talk to somebody and you have a guest and it's going well and you like it and it goes for an hour. then that episode is an hour, or if you have somebody and it's not going very well, or it's not very interesting, and maybe it goes 20 or 30 minutes, but it's not like that sitcom formula, television, the episode, if you ever watch like any of the writers from the 90s talk, the episode had to be 22 minutes

Tommy Podcast:
Yeah.

Chris Lyons:
on screen, because it had to accommodate the intro, the commercial break, the credits, so it was very tailored to this very certain format and it had to fit that and there was no way around that where with this, you can do whatever the hell you want in terms of time, duration, say what you want. One podcaster that my wife watches, she does legal. podcast stuff as well. It's really interesting because we watch it, we stream it to our television, and then she's very friendly and personable and stuff. And you almost feel like you're hanging out with her because it's basically us and then her on a giant television. And she's, you know, talking into the camera, she's narrating, she has her screen share, and she does her different things and stuff. but it's like you forget that this is not from her to us. This is, she's broadcasting to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, but it's a medium that I think gives a more intimate interview than the on the couch with the fake ferns and the coffee mugs with nothing in them. You know,

Tommy Podcast:
Hahaha.

Chris Lyons:
those just, to me, those interviews, nothing interesting is ever learned from those.

Tommy Podcast:
No, never. Ever. And you also just get to know sort of the nature of the person more in an extended exposure versus sort of their elevator pitch, which you can't blame somebody for doing their elevator pitch if they're only getting 30 seconds, but like. If watching yourself or Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and you're just hanging out for 45 minutes back and forth on a topic, you not only hear their message, but you see much more an example of sort of who they are. Would you want to do business with them? Or would you trust them with an

Chris Lyons:
Mm-hmm.

Tommy Podcast:
investigation? Or do they sound like a crackpot because they get all excited every time, you know, there's a new FOIA request about deaths and. the JFK assassination, you know, but

Chris Lyons:
Well,

Tommy Podcast:
it.

Chris Lyons:
and we're going to be getting into the political season here soon. You know, we don't have cable television anymore. I've already started getting some of those oversized flyers in the mail, which is funny because I wonder, I'd really like a focus group like Quinnipiac or one of those like flyers has ever changed somebody's vote because I imagine you know they have to take the nice pictures and set it up and print it and get the nice card stock and pay for the postage and stuff has anybody ever opened their mailbox and said you know what damn it I'm voting for this guy you know it's like they and they do it every time and I understand the whole goal is to get their name out there and their ideas You know, but I mean, they're really boiled down to which political party they're in is like the main thing. And then it'll say like three things about them, you know, like veteran, local, you know, lifetime residents or something like that, you know, married with three children. And it has, you know, a picture because it's a lot of times it's. you know, good looking younger people and they're standing there in front of a weeping willow in their Sunday best with their wife and their kids and these posed photos. How many people have actually opened that and said, you know what, damn it, I'm voting for this guy.

Tommy Podcast:
Not many, I bet. But I like that. I like their budget. And I'm already thinking about selling AI content management to political candidates, because I think they're perfect. I think it's not a stale approach to give them a podcast and a website that shoots out 300 pages of community news a week coming from Bob the candidate. Bob the candidate is just going to crush people. in all the Google searches where people are actively researching versus finding something in your mailbox when you're passively engaged and it may be the right time. You might be like, who am I going to vote for next week? And you open the mailbox and there it is. That probably doesn't happen a lot in terms of perfect timing. But I do think political candidates are very interesting clientele in terms of potential content partners. But the idea of talking about politics also I find revolting. It's

Chris Lyons:
So

Tommy Podcast:
a double-edged

Chris Lyons:
I don't,

Tommy Podcast:
sword.

Chris Lyons:
this is my thing, is I don't care about politics in terms of I believe A and you believe B and you're stupid because you believe B and I'm right because I believe A and you're a terrible person. I don't care about that part of it. The part of politics I find interesting is how it works. The mechanism in how it functions. The focus groups. the debates, the speeches,

Tommy Podcast:
Yeah.

Chris Lyons:
the sound bites, the mailers, the going out to Iowa and shaking hands with Farmer John and all that. I don't care really who is in office for what. It's just the process itself, not the candidate. The process itself is very interesting. And you'll see certain. people will, certain affiliations they make, certain groups they're a part of, boards they're on, depending if they're going for higher office or local office or whatever, but that to me is the interesting part, not the, like I said, candidate A hates candidate B, blue, red, you're a terrible person because... you believe in this or you don't believe in that part of it because you can interchange the topics like today the topic is whatever and Five years from now. It's gonna be something else and there's gonna

Tommy Podcast:
Whatever

Chris Lyons:
be two people

Tommy Podcast:
else.

Chris Lyons:
who are screaming about it and Pissed off and the other person's the worst thing since Hitler, you know that part of it is completely interchangeable It's it's just the mechanism of how it functions to me is really interesting

Tommy Podcast:
Fair enough. Now, I'm gonna have to wrap this up. I'm trying not to hit two hours for certain technical limitation purposes in my workflow.

Chris Lyons:
Okay, okay.

Tommy Podcast:
But let's, so Florida Investigators Network, finnink.org. I wanna make sure to plug that and have everybody check it out. Very cool setup. You don't have to be a law enforcement professional or a certified investigator. There's various levels of membership and you can check that out. F-I-N-I-N-C dot org, correct?

Chris Lyons:
Yes, sir.

Tommy Podcast:
Alright, good. I should remember I've got it in my hand all day long.

Chris Lyons:
I'm out.

Tommy Podcast:
Well, this is good, man. I appreciate it. I'm going to have just watched the upload. It's probably going to upload for 10 minutes after we hang up because I think we're both. Let me see. I'm like 50 percent uploaded. Yeah, you too.

Chris Lyons:
Mine says 44 right now.

Tommy Podcast:
Yes, so that's probably going to be like a five-minute project. So I'll wrap this up. Think about if there are ways to easily, if it's not easy, it's not worth, it's not the right idea. But like easily tell stories that would be historical, educational, career development type. categories and I think you can get people to pay you to make content within the field that you're passionate about potentially.

Chris Lyons:
Yeah, that's interesting. I...

Tommy Podcast:
I'm telling you, we got our first check

Chris Lyons:
Yeah?

Tommy Podcast:
up in

Chris Lyons:
There

Tommy Podcast:
Jersey.

Chris Lyons:
you go.

Tommy Podcast:
And we didn't even have to tell them a specific project. We just said, listen, you know, we've been making media. And they're like, well, show us some media. And we're like, look, we got a whole podcast website. And we just started doing video a couple of months ago. They're like, heck, yeah. You're talking about local multi-generational farms and civil war history in the area. Here's a check. Come back in October. Ask for real money. And so it's like that's an absurd portrayal. But that was essentially the process for us. We went there with great intentions. We had just a happy idea, and we were like, this would be good for everybody. And they were like, you're darn right. That fits our mission. Here's some cash. Come back in October looking for more.

Chris Lyons:
I

Tommy Podcast:
I

Chris Lyons:
have

Tommy Podcast:
think you, I.

Chris Lyons:
a friend I can talk to who is in grants that was a grant writer. We have whole sections that do that. I see you're

Tommy Podcast:
Beautiful.

Chris Lyons:
getting close to the...

Tommy Podcast:
I already did it. I already tipped over two minutes. I just got that, or two hours, I cut that myself. I will wrap it up. I'm just going to have to do a little stupid cut probably in the beginning. But yeah, keep that in mind. And I'm your sounding board, potential production partner, potential ad salesman, whatever we got to do. But keep me in the loop if that germ of an idea grows fruit.

Chris Lyons:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

Tommy Podcast:
Alright brother, I'll send you some clips in a few days. This is going to be a big one to digest.

Chris Lyons:
Okay.

Tommy Podcast:
Don't forget, leave your window open while this sucker uploads.